When Chara Muns (Get Extremely Bitter) Attack

[achievementhunter]

Bird:

Like that's the part that's so damn interesting to me is that, Pacifist Run wise, unless you really shove all the flavor text together and really work to justify that it is chara speaking there

We have two canon situations in which to base off any sort of personality for chara

Neither of them do we hear chara speak

Both times it's Asriel

The first time we're getting snippets of incomplete conversations.

And the second time it's with the bias of someone who literally just tried to destroy the world himself. So it's really interesting how many people take those negative implications of Chara's- well, character and just run with it without considering the flaws in the initial sources.

 

Snap

you see a lot too of "asriel says big kids don't cry/he's a crybaby like chara told him that" and "he thinks chara is the only one who understands him/is fun to play with" as proof that chara abused him, and like... use that to excuse everything he did and all the manipulative things he said to frisk thinking they were chara

but like... in the exact same breath as "chara might have been abused but it doesn't excuse their own abusive actions"

which, like... yes, very true, but.... that doesn't only apply selectively?

 

5:37 AMBird Bee

I mean in that same breath if you wanted to turn around and play Asriel as really manipulative, you really fucking could.

Because a lot of kids will do "crocodile tears" to gain attention and sympathy

 

 

Snap

and.... yeah, like, it's easy forget sometimes how kids actually act.....

crocodile tears, calling each other crybabies and dummies and fartlords, etc

but... dude. kids.

 

 

Bird

it's actually a really...interesting psychological process. Moral development

like, there's generally five varying stages that are widely accepted when it comes to it and kids fall under a category of

"How does this benefit me/get me out of trouble"

Kids are literally sociopaths. They aren't at a mental development of understanding past their own sense of self and feelings that other people have feelings too?

 

Snap

like yeah the idea that socially-dictated emotions like shame don't start to show up until like age 7 or so

 

Bird

which is why kids never sound genuine when they apologize generally unless you explain WHY they should be apologizing, they don't understand why they'd have to

they didn't get hurt what's the problem.

 

Snap

and they sort of... don't get WHY rules are rules or why you're supposed to do x when y, just accept that Authority Knows Best

 

Bird

mhmm! And from there like, the next step is Social Morality which is literally

 

Snap

so they do parrot a lot of what Authority Says at that point without really knowing why too

 

Bird

"This is a parent/teacher they say this is good/bad so it is good/bad there is no inbetween"

 

Snap

Big Kids Don't Cry because..... idk grown ups said so, so it's true

 

Bird

exactly!

once you start getting a bit older you get the whole sheep morality going too, which is "my friends think this is right, I'm also going to think it's right"

like...it's..a process, to get to universal morality

which is where you start to factor what you think is right or wrong and begin to understand that it's not black and white

and some people don't even reach that

 

Snap

most people don't even get to the elusive Last Stage because at that point it starts to look Scary yeah

doing what's best on a universal level even if it means hurt on an individual level or doing illegal/taboo things

pulling the switch so the trolley runs over only one person instead of passively letting it mow down three

 

Bird

which is basically where Sans stands as well

the whole "you can have a reason for something but that doesn't make it good no matter how you look at it"

you save the world by blowing up a busload of kids. The world is saved but you still blew up a busload of kids.

 

Snap

Cool Motive Still Murder

and like... if you really wanted to take a certain perspective, you could even say that chara's plan was more morally "justified" than the way the barrier actually broke

 

Bird

that phrase shits me so bad because 99% of the time I see people use it and it's like no son that's not the point

the point is not "they had a reason so they're actually a precious baby protect them"

it's "they had a reason I find that interesting and can understand/relate to that"

 

Snap

very tru

 (and i figure that chara at least is definitely aware how reprehensible their actions are they just.... keep going regardless)

 (just like sans will kill a child who finally chose to spare even if that's underhanded etc)

they were willing to be one of the lives lost instead of completely dumping it on other people, and they were also willing to do the irredeemable act themselves instead of burdening someone else

 

Bird

(oh yeah definitely. Insert immense self loathing here no one hates Chara more than Chara)

 

Snap

they tried to target a village of people they KNEW (in their opinion) were guilty of one thing or another (But Nobody Came, etc)

 

Bird

That's the other thing about them going after the village, like

Asriel doesn't really specify that they wanted to wipe EVERYONE out

 

Snap

which, if you don't just... "dude murder is murder" you could try and reason it through as "that was a morally better choice than SIX INNOCENT CHILDREN"

 

Bird

certainly if they had a Bad Time there would be bad feels there

but he froze because the intent to murder was there

not because of the scale of murder

 

Snap

like yeah i think they were absolutely willing to singlehandedly fight the entire world if that was how it played out

 

Bird

oh definitely

 

Snap

but i also sort of think their idea wasn't "let's declare war on ALL MANKIND for kicks"

so much as "deliver justice to people who did wrong, free monsters who were only kind"

the whole War on Humanity/So Hyped For the Destruction of Humanity thing only really bloomed out of Asgore's grief

 

Bird

I think Chara's a bit smarter than that. Like this is the kid who saw how badly ill buttercups made a ten foot tall monster and went "yep that's it I can take myself out like that and no one will have to bear the guilt of thinking they couldn't save me from killing myself"

 

Snap

monsters aren't used to human illness THEY'LL NEVER KNOW

 

Bird

EXACTLY....

 

Snap

like they eat magic food that just vanishes instantly do you really think they know about stomach pumping

 

Bird

if anything Chara has a really sharp mind and good lord if they'd actually grown up and helped Asriel rule the Underground God Help Everyone

they would've been a hella leader if they'd been directed down that path

 

Snap

GOD YES i'm positive they have a head for politics, for better or for worse

like... straight up, rulers have to make really hard decisions

and fluffy intentions only get so far (gestures vaguely at toriel and asgore's entire everything)

 

Bird

that's government. Like as we've discussed before Chara would not have gone oblivious to the fact that people were suffering and Asgore and Toriel were being crushed under the weight of it all

overpopulation economy crash the core might not have been around at that point either so what was lighting outside of glow crystals and a shitload of generators blah blah

 

Snap

and like... knowing how sort of timid and wishy-washy asriel could be but also knowing he was going to be inheriting responsibility for all of these problems

 

Bird

god yeah

 

Snap

it is literally not possible to please everyone all the time, asriel

you are going to explode if you are put on the throne thinking that

 

Bird

and Asgore's really stupid (and probably unintentional) mistake of calling them 'the future of humans and monsters'

kind of puts them in the mindset of "I am literally the only one with any power to actually do something which will have a serious impact on these issues"

 

Snap

http://i.imgur.com/mP9rMGu.png like.... literally come on

 

Bird

Good job Asgore you fucking twat

why are you even a king you are literally not made for it

 

Snap

ISNT IT COOL WHEN POWER IS DECIDED BY BIRTHRIGHT INSTEAD OF QUALIFICATION

like even his lost soul speech goes from "this is my duty" to "you are our future"

great resolution there buddy i guess

 

 

Bird

thank god for Toriel

T B H I'd rather believe Toriel was the one raised in the position and Asgore married into the crown then the other way around

 

Snaps

YEAH UH THAT.... would have worked out better for everyone

like.... waves arms at no mercy run

where EVERYONE IS LITERALLY DYING

and asgore still does not absorb the souls

just putters around in the garden all "oh howdy what kind of monster are you"

 

Bird

though I mean her rational reaction to the whole 'let's start taking souls' deal was to

steal a dead body

run literally as far away from Asgore as possible

lock up an ancient ruin which by the way, HAD A LOT OF UNUSED, ADDITIONAL SPACE WITH HOUSES THAT PROBABLY JUST NEEDED SOME TLC TO BE OCCUPIED

and then just kind of watch five more kids stroll out the door like "oh well Ihope this goes a little better than las- nope nope it didn't"

 

Snap

YEAH UH THANKS

like undertale in general is a tale of "literally everyone makes some incredibly piss-poor decisions"

 

Bird

and they're all understandable decisions

Asgore is grief wracked and decides to push blame of that onto the only thing he can

Toriel is also grieving and is so ashamed of what her husband has become (literally what Asriel died not being) she runs away. She even professes to Frisk during their fight that she's scared and lonely

Sans is like. Lol well Sans is Sans.

Unhappy Past (tm)

Undyne grows up in a culture that's pro-kill humans

she literally does not know any better, even about human children

Alphys is so depressed she's clearly been considering suicide and she uses Frisk as her last lifeline to prove she's worth something

Mettaton literally almost steals frisk's soul to fuck off and be a star whilst the underground rots

 

 

Snap

even papyrus puts his desire for acceptance before a kid's well-being

big ole backdown into "i'll help you in any way i can" to undyne, the whole "yeah uh my friends opinion of you is.... very murdery BUT IT'S FINE BEING FRIENDS WITH EVERYONE IS EASY!!!!"

and like.... man my chara gets salty about it a lot but they have that hella double standard toward frisk

like yeah sure we can do whatever we want to the human kid

but if they do one thing wrong NO HAPPY ENDING FOR YOU

and frisk like living in terror of what would happen if they told people about timelines

 

 

Bird

honey your monster kid gets hella salty about that too

 

Snap

.....yeah you're right honestly

at least trip's reasons are a bit more... rational???

"kids literally can't be as responsible as adults YOU KNOW THE ADULTS LITERALLY EVERYONE ELSE IS"

chara's more "you're all hypocrites how about i make YOUR sins crawl"

 

Bird

PFFF

yeah well I mean Chara has a fucking point

 

Snap

a literal point, they have a knife

like they're full-on willing to accept that holy heck they're committing murders they're being HORRIBLE and they do deserve to pay for that, it just.... REALLY pisses them off when everyone else rationalizes their own actions as Good And Not Counting

 (mostly because hey the people of their village thought they were being Good and it Didn't Count when they beat a monster to death for showing up with the corpse of a child they all refused to help in life)

 

Bird

yeah no I don't think for one second Chara can't look at what they're doing and not see that they're doing A Bad

mind even if Chara was doing A Good they'd still be sitting there calling it A Bad

 

Snap

extremely and horrendously tru

like man eway chara's fights with the pines twins they're kinda just jumping right back into that cycle

show up and start hollering about how "wow no i don't want you peeking at my memories i don't care if you think you're Being a Good that isn't what I want you horrible fuck"

and they get slugged and it turns into A Big Ole Thing

and the pines patting themselves on the back like "yeah we did awesomeeee"

"wasn't our fault we stood up for ourselves"

which like.... honestly just looking at a memory isn't anything wrong but CHARA GOES SALTY because wow that's So Very Humanity

 

Bird

yeah but in the same token if Mabel had been staring at a memory of someone, even someone she didn't like

and they'd come up all "excuse me I'm realy sorry but that's a very private memory and you viewing it is upsetting"

the reaction would've been extremely different

cause and effect blah blah

 

Snap

yeah chara literally does kinda just... tip the scales against themselves in outrageous ways

 

Bird

they really do I mean who brings a knife to a fistfight

 

Snap

PEOPLE WHO REALLY HAVE NO CHILL

literally straight-up ready to murder for "wow a 12 year old punched me"

"wow another 12 year old knows my last name BETTER FIGHT TO THE DEATH HUH"

"that's a reasonable and rational life choice let's do it"

but they have literally zero experience with how healthy reasonable conflict resolution goes, since they kinda went from The Surface Ha Ha Ha to like... the nose nuzzling champs of '98 Cinnamon Roll Family to "literally everyone attempts to murder frisk"

so they take that and intentionally sort of interpret everything as further evidence to cement their views

stacking the deck against themselves even in defiance of actual logic

 

Bird

yeah but see like that's the interesting thing about Undertale

like, any other game and any other hero you kill stuff and you get the whole "well see they work for this Ultimate Bad Guy therefore making them A Bad Guy by extension"

so killing them isn't a big deal go pat yourself on the back

it's triumph of good over evil

there are bads and there are us and therefore we are the good guys

 

 

Snap

i honestly still know zilch about GF i need to actually watch it lmao

 

Bird

yeah me neither I've watched like, the first episode fkjnsk

but generally speaking most things fall under that pattern

there's a good there's a bad you are one or the other now get out there and scalp someone!

it falls into that heavy black and white and even the attempts at grey are usually "oh well I was a bad but I changed my mind and now I am a good or will redeem myself in some sacrifice that ultimately makes me a good at the end"

Undertale doesn't let you do that.

which is hilarious because it lets the monsters do that.

the scales are heavily weighed against frisk from the get go. There's literally only one way to get a good end, you have to do these things exactly. You must be Pristine Pacifist.

some of the neutral endings are practically worse than the genocide end

 

Snap

(and because it lets a lot of the audience sort of... not question things because hey Chara can still be The Story's Antagonist with no gray whatsoever)

god yeah i think a lot of the "life without hope" endings are horrendous

like you can even still be an Asshole Pacifist and do okay, but you literally have to Befriend all the main cast

don't feel like hanging with undyne after all the murdering? too bad, no happy ending!!!

whereas if you kill even once undyne will NEVER befriend you

 

 

Bird

and even at the very end of the pacifist run, if you start your game again?

flowey's there to remind you

you're still the biggest evil in the game

 

Snap

yeah

where's the Mercy for Frisk who SAVES frisk

 

Bird

lol what mercy

why do you think FC frisk has such a complex

because they've been through almost the entirety of a genocide and a good portion of the neutral ends, and they've seen how no one else faces consequences outside of themself

 

Snap

is anyone actually considering "okay we're stacking on expectations that this kid is The Friend I Always Wanted and the saviour of the underground and perpetually forgiving OH AND ALSO they're literally in charge of managing the extremely tense and volatile relations between humans and monsters"

is.... wwwwow a ticking time bomb

 

Bird

ticking time bomb is an understatement.

giant understatement

 

Snap

it's kind of happening in eway too though with the stuff that chara's coming after frisk about

like... gesticulates at their most recent post about trying to grasp fucking philosophy and quantum mechanics out of a sense of responsibility and their dread of telling people about saves and resets

and chara's been leaning on them too about like... how little they even kind of have that a kid really should have

their room looks like Home, which was a room full of traces of other children

now it's New Home and hey isn't that side asriel's side

hey that locket and knife aren't yours to begin with

like their entire time underground they were reduced sort of to... just being a SOUL, the seventh soul

flowey called them Chara, asgore heaped those expectations on them, everyone kind of... didn't give frisk a lot of chance to just.... be their own kid

and now they're just The Saviour The Ambassador The Angel Who's Seen the Surface

and whoops, looks like they're terrified of what happens when everyone finds out they aren't just those perfect expectations!!!

 

Bird

god that's one thing about the whole "undertale takes place in a singular day" theory that amuses me so much

because if it's true then Sans' idea of 'taking care' of Frisk was literally

"I made sure they had breakfast and dinner they're fine"

"staple diet for the repeatedly murdered, make sure they're healthy"

 

Snap

"i'm pretty sure they had a nap at some point it's fine, this is fine"

 

Bird

like the fact that that's pretty much the only indication of any sort of care they get once they leave Toriel is wow

it's really wow

 

Snap

yeah toriel uh thanks for refusing to pick up the phone or let frisk visit because a kid wandering off alone in horrible murderous circumstances with no emotional support or safety from Their Friend and Guardian is.... gr8

 

Bird

yep better not answer because it'd be terrible if you heard them screaming as something killed them that's way too much for you

 

Snap

(and sans thanks for uh.... nothing actually getting eaten during those dates just a bunch of varyingly cryptic intimidation tactics getting laid out)

DO YOU KNOW ABOUT A TALKING FLOWER (ominous spotlight)

DEAD WHERE YOU STAND

 

Bird

NOW YOU WILL BE JUDGED

but hey, I'm not judgin

 (why the fuck you lyin, Sans.)         

 

Snap

Boy I love Using (hey!!! manipulative!!!) intimidation tactics on people not old enough to do long division!!!

let's threaten toddlers then also be their fatherly support figure that won't send mixed messages at all

 

Bird

kfjnkj

 

Snap

like you get why so many people are just too heartbroken to get their hopes up again etc but GUYS THIS KID IS LIKE WHAT, 11

8???? 12???? 3

A LITTLE YOUNG FOR THIS BULLSHIT, PROBABLY

 

Bird

who knows but I really doubt they're older then 13 at most

the definition 'child' only stretches so far

 

Snap

yyyyeah for sure